Public Safety Building Committee
Meeting Minutes
April 18, 2007
6:30 PM Holden Light Department
Present: Christopher Lucchesi, Bob Beck, Karl Makela, David White, Jack Chandler, George Sherrill, Richard Bates, Brian Forts, Gene Stirchak
Absent: Mary Ryan, Hal Lane, Peter Liddy,
Others Present: Michael McKeon (of Kaestle Boos), Robert Mitchell, Melissa McKeon, David Ellis, Jean Laquidam Hill, Scott Charbonneau, Peter Benoit, David Chapin, Andy Miller, Ed Weathersbee, Shelia Bachant
The points below begin with the title of the original agenda item.
Call to Order:
The meeting was called to order at 18:36.
Approval of previous meeting minutes (March 21, 2007):
Mr. Forts made a motion to accept the minutes of the 21 March meeting as written. The motion was seconded by Mr. Makela. The minutes were accepted with 3 votes for accepting, no votes opposing, and 2 abstentions. The minutes from the 4 April meeting were incomplete at the time of this meeting and were deferred for consideration to the next meeting.
Public Comment:
Chairman Lucchesi noted that the Committee appreciated all comments from the public but that the Committee will try to avoid dialogue in the meeting to stay on agenda. Having said that Chairman Lucchesi also noted that there are many avenues to reach and communicate with the Committee and encouraged all who are wishing to be involved to do so.
There were no speakers from the public at this time.
Updates from the Chair:
Facility Tours:
A small number of Committee members toured three facilities on 14 April. The facilities visited were the Foxboro combined Police and Fire facility (which was under construction), the Upton Fire Station (construction was completed in 2003 or 4) and the Grafton Police Station (occupied in September of 2006). Additional tours will not be scheduled unless a Committee member brings the point up in new business. In total, various Committee members have toured 6-7 sites of varying types: new, renovated, in the middle of construction but all were relatively recently occupied.
Fire Facility Design
Bob Mitchell is here tonight. Mr. Mitchell did yeoman’s work in preparing a very preliminary design for the site the Committee has chosen. This should be used as a starting point for further discussion. Mr. Mitchell prepared a presentation for the Committee to review the Fire Department’s Needs assessment. The Committee was encouraged to ask questions throughout. The presentation combined photos of the current Holden Fire Station and photos of the newer facilities visited the previous weekend for comparison purposes. The presentation also includes drawings, graphs and additional information prepared by Mr. Mitchell from the needs assessment work with Chief Chandler and other members of the Holden Fire Department.
Fire Facility Needs Assessment:
Mr. Mitchell described the needs assessment process and the resulting “programming” for designing a Fire facility. The program includes text, diagrams, spread sheets and descriptions of types of rooms. The information for these was derived from an initial detailed questionnaire completed by Chief Chandler and Fire Department personnel. During this process details for each type of room possible is developed. The assessment then describes for each room who uses the room, what is needed in the room for the work in the room, size of room, what rooms need to be adjacent, what operational zone the room belongs in, the finishes required by the room and the security needed for the room. From these descriptions diagrams are made of each room with the equipment which will occupy the room (this is used to confirm the
stated size of the room is correct). From this a summary sheet of the proposed space is created.
For the first pass at the design, the general types of rooms and spaces are as follows.
Room Area (all areas in square feet)
Truck Bay 7253
Firematic Support 2564
Administration 2208
Firefighters Area 3038
Bunking 1084
Public Spaces 2075
EMS Spaces 130
Misc Spaces 646
Total: 24,748
Foot print 22869 (a mezzanine of 1899 sq. ft. is incorporated in the plan)
From these figures, an initial attempt at a floor plan was made. In doing so several issues arose in using the existing structure which affected space requirements. These included the following.
Room Area (all areas in square feet)
2007 Plan 24,691
Vertical Circulation 1553 (stairways, elevator)
Additional EMS Space 3033 (if outside contractor)
Renovation Inefficiencies 2109 (existing structure that can not be altered affecting the plan)
Final Total 31,386
It was noted the 2004 plan for the station built new was 24,436 sq. ft. compared to 24,691 in 2007. It was also noted that if the EMS service is brought into the Fire Department (not as a contracted service), then the need to separate the EMS portion of the facilities by locked doors is eliminated and the area requirements can be reduced by a third.
Chief Chandler briefly described each of the rooms in the design, providing the use and purpose of each.
Fire Facility Design Considerations
Mr. Forts noted the plan presented was well thought out but noted that the cost of such a facility is a critical issue. The Committee needs an idea of the cost to be able to really understand the appropriateness of the design. Mr. Forts asked for assistance in making comparisons of what we needed vs. what is present in the design now.
Mr. White called the Committees attention to the proposal for the Police facility at 18,000 sq. ft. while the Fire facility proposal was 32,000 sq. ft. Mr. White stated that the both facilities are too big and won’t fly. Mr. White further stated that he looked at the drawings on April 14, acknowledged that the plans presented represent a great deal of work but that he was disappointed because the plans did not incorporate any of the spirit of the previous discussions of the Committee. Specifically, the idea of 6 bays on 3 different levels will not work. The EMS area won’t fly and if the ambulance service comes in house none of the additional space will be needed. Currently the 3,000 sq. ft. designated for the EMS is $1,000,000. Even if the EMS is outsourced, Mr. White stated he will not support it. Mr. Makela
noted that in earlier discussions that no great expansion of the Fire Department Headquarters was foreseen yet this plan added 3 equipment bays. Mr. Beck suggested that the existing bays be used for the lighter or smaller equipment so that the floor would not require reinforcement. The new bays would then be used for the heavier, larger equipment. This would put the investment into new space not renovation of old space. Mr. Beck also noted that the equipment is all on the upper level which will help response times while the administrative and public spaces are behind. Mr. White contested this idea, noting the tanker trucks are generally smaller but also the heaviest. Chief Chandler noted the new design has one truck per bay. Currently the trucks are parked 2 deep, which require that the trucks be small.
Chairman Lucchesi asked for more information regarding the bunk rooms, especially as to the purpose of these rooms, noting that the public needs to understand the reasoning behind this. Mr. Lucchesi noted that a significant portion of the Fire Department is call personnel and that there is concern regarding why 6 bunkrooms are needed. Chief Chandler responded that at some point, people will be staying over night at the Station. There are many reasons as to why this will be. It is hard now and getting harder to get call people and this may force the Department to take in more professional fire fighters. This is driven by the fact that the Holden community is changing and that people who would become call fire fighters do not live here. Volunteers must stay home when on call which makes it hard to be on call. Also, much
more training is required to be a call fire fighter now than before. Second, the demands on the Fire Department are changing. There are fewer fire calls and more calls on CO detectors, flooded basements, smoke alarms, and ambulance calls (if brought into the Department). The response time to Sterling Street is currently 20-25 minutes. Having people on site overnight in the Fire Station reduces this by five minutes. In order to get one engine out immediately after a call requires 4 people. To get out one ambulance immediately requires 2 people. That is the how the number of 6 rooms was arrived at. From there volunteers would follow to the emergency site as they arrive.
Chairman Lucchesi asked, if volunteers are diminishing in numbers, why a day room is needed. Chief Chandler responded that such a room encourages volunteers to come to the station to exercise and meet other volunteers. This improves the coverage and possible response time as the fire fighters are at the station more. Long term, while volunteer numbers may be in decline, the Department will never go with full time personnel only. The day room is needed to provide support to the volunteers.
Chairman Lucchesi inquired about the elevator in the extension at the back of the design. If there are no public spaces on the upper floor in back why is an elevator needed. Mr. McKeon responded that there are other people working in the building than just the fire fighters. An elevator is required for those other people who work in the building. Having said that, Mr. McKeon noted that exceptions have been allowed in the past.
Chairman Lucchesi then asked about the number of bays. Is the development of the headquarters site as a central place for equipment and materials meant for equipment currently in hand or for equipment to be acquired in the future? Chief Chandler replied that the bays in the plan matches the equipment currently owned. Some of the equipment at the sub station in the south of town could be located at the headquarters.
Chairman Lucchesi reminded Mr. White of the idea Mr. White put forward in January about using building materials in a smart way. Chairman Lucchesi stated that he found this initial draft surprising but noted that it did follow the idea of building behind the current structure and that use of inexpensive building materials is possible. Mr. Bates noted that many localities use Butler building for office and public spaces. The types of rooms in the plan at the back of the building can easily be housed in this type of building. Mr. White stated that the exterior of the building is not critical and that the interior is the same either way. An Upton steel frame with brick looks good. Mr. White continued that despite being disappointed with this initial draft, the area of the building in the back should be made bigger (there is
plenty of land room to do this). The rooms currently on the right of the plan should be moved further back. One advantage to this design is that staff quarters are on the same level as the bays which avoids having support rooms upstairs. Mr. White further noted we are constrained with the exiting layout but to that the bays and living quarters on the same level is the best element of the plan. Mr. Mitchell noted that the bays on the right of the plan can not be kept on the same level as the existing bays due to the slope of the land being too steep. Also, Mr. Mitchell said that we can not be sure the floor under the existing offices has been prepared in the same way as the existing bays. Lastly, the roof height over the bays needs to rise as discussed before. Mr. White asked how an exit will be made form bays in trucks if there is a constraint on the traffic light location. Chief Chandler told the Committee that he has met with the Massachusetts Highway Department and that they
have said that they would work with Holden in putting the traffic light in the best location for the station. Mr. White noted that the last time Mass Highway was approached on this issue, they said no to possibly moving the light. Chief Chandler noted they changed their statement and that a delay on the light would work.
Chairman Lucchesi asked if a bay could be put to the left of the existing bays. Mr. White responded that a variance to the set back would be needed and that as a vehicle left the bay it would have to swing left quickly. Mr. Mitchell noted that in the current plan a first responder’s cars are parked on the left hand side of the driveway. Mr. Mitchell further noted that with the size and quantity of equipment if put below would cause trouble with public entry to the station on the lower level. The contouring of the site becomes troublesome with the equipment in bays on the lower level. Also, with the 50 person plus meeting room in the building, there needs to be a separate fire truck exit from the public entry/exit. Mr. White stated that call volunteers and the work of the Department do not mix well with massive
public access to the building. Mr. Bates asked where the training for volunteers takes place now. Chief Chandler responded that it occurs in the existing bay area or at the Senior Center. Mr. White asked that the Committee consider what training should occur in the training room as currently planned. Mr. Forts said that raises two issues: 1. where else can training take place and 2. can the training space as in the plan be cut because that training can be done elsewhere? Mr. Makela advocated that the meeting/training room be excluded from public usage and that the proposed conference room be combined with the training room (two rooms to one smaller room).This was supported by Chairman Lucchesi and Mr. Bates.
Chairman Lucchesi noted that the town has not yet decided how EMS services will be provided in the future (contracted out or brought into the Fire Department’s remit). If the EMS is contracted out, 3000 sq. ft. will not work in this plan. If the EMS comes in house, then the area dedicated to EMS should be reduced. The purpose of this layout as shown is to visualize how the plan would look if the EMS is brought into the Fire facility but manned by an outside contractor.
One additional highlight brought forward by Chairman Lucchesi was that 1200 sq. ft. of the existing structure effectively is left for storage space since a way of more actively using that space for other types of rooms can not be contrived. It could be asked if this should drive demolition of the existing structure and starting new, but Chairman Lucchesi believes that the current structure is an asset that should be kept and used even with this additional issue.
Mr. White stated that the only problem with a design such as this is it becomes a baseline. Say the fitness room, stated as 1000 sq. ft. on this draft becomes 700 sq. ft. in a later draft, people will say “You cut the building.” If we cut the current number of 6 bunk rooms to 4, people will say the Committee cut the plan in spite of the possible fact that 4 rooms is the right size. Chief Chandler noted that what was shown in this draft is better than a whole new building, that some things will be reduced but with functionality and cost effectiveness of the building in mind. Chairman Lucchesi commented that this plan is a first pass and not the final reality. Now the Committee has to get all the aspects to work together to make a proposal that has a chance to pass before the voters.
Mr. Beck noted that currently the Fire Squad goes off site to get training now. The same thing occurs for training of the public when needed. This takes fire fighters away from the Station and reduces the response capability of the Fire Department. As drawn, more fire fighters are present on the site and emergency responsiveness improves. Also, the public who comes to the Station for training will be more likely to serve as help in recruiting new volunteers for the Department. Lastly, there has been a practice in Holden that public buildings have some public spaces. The trouble with the current design is getting the public in and out past fire equipment. Change the design and maintain the practice of public building having access to public meeting areas. Mr. Beck ended by saying he advocates keeping the public training
spaces. Mr. McKeon reminded the Committee that even without the public using rooms in the Fire Station for meetings or training, volunteers to be trained will come in cars and parking will be needed. There are other activities that occur at the Fire Station which can not move away, such as people bringing in plans for review, people coming to speak with the Fire Chief, etc. A second point was made noting that demand for public meeting spaces is increasing. Use of parking and the meeting rooms is a benefit to be used by the town which also builds trust and knowledge about the Fire Department.
Mr. Beck offered another view point. While the drawing says the space is 31,000 sq. ft., the usable space is only 24,000 sq. ft. The hard core numbers from the needs assessment are the only rooms present in the building. This would mean that anything cut in this plan cuts into the space called for in the needs assessment. Mr. White responded that Town of Holden already does a good job of providing public meeting space: there are rooms in the HMLD building, at the Senior Center and the Selectman room at the Town Hall. Saying people can’t come to the Fire Department for a public meeting does not reduce the friendliness of the Fire Department. As drawn now, there could be a meeting of up to 50 volunteer fire fighters and then a town meeting on top of that could occur. This is mixing different types of traffic and
intents to the detriment of all.
Mr. Forts brought up an additional point regarding another possible site. While the Committee has eliminated many sites but one site that was not considered was the ball field by the Senior Center. Chief Sherrill noted that the access from this property would go by the Damon property and that getting trucks out from this site on the roads would be nightmarish. Mr. McKeon noted that a 1 floor solution at the Damon property will not work for either the Fire or Police Departments.
Mr. Makela asked how much space is available at the back of the existing Fire Station. Mr. Makela stated that if there is lots of open space in the rear of the building, let’s use that. Mr. Mitchell replied that the area in the rear of the existing station is difficult to work with. The grade drops off 10 feet or more as you go further back on the property which would require a 3rd level to the building if used. The contour of the property in this area also causes problems that would require fill, another issue and cost to contend with.
Mr. Mitchell also made one other point regarding the bunk rooms. The bunk rooms would provide the department the option to have college students to bunk in the station and provide fire coverage in return. This option is being used by other towns in the state and region. The young people become engaged in fire service early in life and remain engaged. This is a low cost option for communities to get first responders inexpensively. Chief Sherrill added one additional point to this. In usual years, there are 3-6 occurrences a year where employees may work up to 16 or 20 hours in a day (due to heavy snow for example). The bunk space would be a place where these people can safely and easily stay overnight in situations where going home may not be an option.
Chairman Lucchesi noted that with the needs assessment completed, the Committee has to determine how to provide room for the programs and get passage at the ballot box. With the area identified in the needs assessment and assumptions of construction costs, an overall cost and the tax implications can be calculated. A simple model has a price of $400 per square foot of building space for public safety facilities. One thousand sq. ft. costs $400,000. Making the assumption that interest on borrowed money is 5.5% for a 20yr term; the cost is $33,000 per year. When distributed to all Holden property owners that is an average of $5.03 per tax bill for 1,000 sq. ft of facility or $106 for the life of the borrowing. This can be used to address issues of what are must haves in both facilities, what is needed to make the
Departments operational, and what is needed to make the facilities last. Chairman Lucchesi wants to have the discussions of the Committee around this frame work, so that when proposal are made to change size up or down, the effect on the tax payers of Holden is visible. Mr. Bates stated that he had approached this from a different direction, that Holden must have new public safety facilities as the old facilities are not adequate for Holden. Chairman Lucchesi stated that he is sensitive to people struggling with affording food and oil but that Holden does need these facilities. This Committee needs to use tax monies wisely and effectively. This is one way of measuring that. Mr. White the noted that the two initial draft plans before the Committee total 40,000 sq. ft. for a cost of $16,000,000. This comes down to $200 per taxpayer per year. Last year the Town reduced tax bills $150 per year and people did not notice (there was still statements that taxes went up in spite of the
reduction). This Committee can not go down the road with grossly inflated numbers as these. Mr. White stated he will not support a 17,000 sq. ft. Police Station.
Mr. McKeon noted he and others at Kaestle Boos appreciate the concerns over cost and size of the facilities in current draft plans but there is a process at work here. If the Committee tells Kaestle Boos what the target square footage is, Kaestle Boos will go and work with the programs of the departments in order to get those to fit into that area. Mr. McKeon ended by asking the Committee if the Committee can give Kaestle Boos that target to work to. Mr. Makela noted that he at the last meeting repeatedly asked about use of basement space in these facilities. A plan can be made to construct these facilities with a full basement and house the mechanical spaces, the exercise rooms, etc. and not take up space on the main floor. Construction in the basement does not need to be elaborate. Mr. McKeon noted Kaestle Boos is
working on 2 possible schemes for the Police facility, one with a basement and one without. Mr. McKeon noted that Damon House is elevated about 5 feet out of the ground and the property is on a slight grade. In general, Mr. McKeon noted that the cost of constructing a basement with cement walls with water proofing and sumps as needed will be the equivalent of building only above ground. A basement is not an automatic savings. Mr. Makela noted that basement space would allow for a smaller footprint on the Damon property. Mr. McKeon agreed with that, especially considering the parking needed. Mr. Makela noted there are currently 30 parking spaces in the municipal lot and 9 spaces in the back of Damon House.
New Business
Green Building Funding
Falmouth received a grant for $500,000 for designing and constructing a green public building. WRHS is receiving $1,200,000 for the being a green building. The Committee needs to discuss what options are available and the desirability to pursue this option.
Dissemination of Information
Chairman Lucchesi proposed to present progress to the Board of Selectmen on April 23rd. Mr. White agreed this is a good idea to augment his updates to the Board of Selectmen. Chairman Lucchesi noted that he had emailed all the Selectmen asking for ideas on how to proceed with this project. So far, one response has been received and three are due. Once all the responses are received, Chairman Lucchesi said he would compile the information and share it with the Committee.
Future Agenda Items:
Chairman Lucchesi will speak offline with Mr. McKeon to get a sense of where the Committee is the process of getting to a proposal for the Town. Chairman Lucchesi will then share Mr. McKeon’s opinions with the Committee. Also, Chairman Lucchesi wants the Committee to be sure detailed information regarding the Fire Department site and the any design for that site are not endangered by unstable or unsuitable conditions on the site. A repeat of the surprises that have occurred at the High School is not wanted. The site must be fully evaluated before starting any work on the site. Mr. Beck requested that a concept design for the Police station to be included on the current site with the Fire Station for comparison to the Damon House site. Mr. McKeon agreed that even though the Committee has voted not to do this
(combined facilities on one site) he will provide a concept design with Chief Sherrill’s input. Mr. Forts asked if a site assessment should be done for the Fire Facility site. Mr. White said that the types of soil present will dictate the footing design but that borings should be done to determine the type of construction needed to assess the cost more accurately. Mr. McKeon noted that at least a couple of borings were done for the last project and that he will review the results again, but wanted to know what the Committee’s concerns are. Chairman Lucchesi stated that the Committee wants to understand the consequences of the building on the current Fire Station site, especially in light of finding out that there may be a stump dump from the original construction of the High School on or near the property. Chairman Lucchesi told Mr. McKeon that he has a name of a contact they could speak with to learn more. Mr. White reminded the Committee that the draft plan presented
tonight requires the acquisition of the abutting property to the southeast of the site. Chief Chandler stated that if the EMS facility and the public meeting rooms are not included in the design of a renovated and added onto Fire facility that the property in question would not be needed. Mr. White also asked that if a variance for set backs on the North side of the existing Fire Station be obtained if a bay on that side could be constructed. Mr. White also noted in conversation with the owner of the restaurant KPs, he learned that the owner has no issue with such a variance. Both Mr. McKeon and Mr. Mitchell noted there are issues with set backs that need to be settled to proceed with this. Mr. White asked how much space is needed for an ambulance bay. The answer was approximately 20 feet, which would result in an encroachment of 6 feet on the set back. Chairman Lucchesi said this option will be studied for feasibility.
Mr. White asked if the Committee could go into executive session to discuss other topics after the regular meeting. Mr. Forts said that no, this Committee can not as the Committee is not an “acquiring” board. Mr. Forts also said that the statutes in this area are specific.
Public Comment:
Barry Tupper: Mr. Tupper reminded the Committee that 8,000 sq. ft. of the existing Fire Station is included in the draft plan for the Fire Facility presented this evening. That means 23,000 sq. ft., not 31,000 sq. ft., would have to be built. This means the overall per square foot cost estimate of $400 is too high and will be lower. Mr. Tupper also noted that there are no estimates of overall cost yet but that as the plans are narrowed down to a few options this will come and will be crucial. Mr. Tupper also noted Call Volunteers with the Fire Department need the parking that is currently on the north side of the lot where the last proposal for a new bay was made. In an emergency, seconds count and losing these parking spaces will add those seconds. Also, the pole for the traffic light would obstruct the exit of any
vehicle from this bay and would require navigating around when exiting the bay or parking the truck(s) in the bay.
Chairman Lucchesi asked if the Committee can get cost numbers based on Mr. Tupper’s observation about the existing 8,000 sq. ft. of Fire Station. Mr. McKeon noted that renovation cost estimates are hard to develop without a full design. Mr. White stated that he wants to have a proposal that will find support from the voters. Mr. Makela noted that if the Committee has to use the term “sell” in describing a proposal, then the Committee will not get the support from the voters it needs. The proposals have to be realistic.
Mr. White asked the 17,000 sq. ft. for a Police facility is what the Committee wants to use to generate a draft plan to. Mr. Lucchesi said yes it is, in his opinion. Mr. Bates added that details from a draft plan help because the foot print of a building on the Damon House site and use of the space is difficult to visualize.
Adjournment:
Mr. Forts made a motion to adjourn the meeting. The motion was seconded by Mr. Bates. The vote was unanimous to adjourn. The meeting adjourned at 21:25.
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